Wednesday, February 22, 2017

Green Line LRT project considers alternate route in Victoria Park and Ramsay

The Green Line LRT team has been evaluating alignment options in the Beltline since early last year. We began with more than a dozen options and, through several phases of evaluation, narrowed those options down to two: 12 Avenue S Surface, and 12 Avenue S Tunnel + Surface, shown in the graphics below.

12 Avenue S Surface
12 Avenue Tunnel + Surface



Over the course of our detailed evaluation, we’ve discovered significant technical and operational considerations for the alignment east of 4 St S.E. (the East Victoria Park area). As a result, we have been considering alternative options to connect the Green Line from the Beltline to the Ramsay/Inglewood area.

Considerations include:
  • Victoria Park redevelopment -Canada Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC) is currently developing its Rivers District Masterplan, which includes potential Calgary Next facilities and consideration of future Olympic infrastructure . The Green Line will be part of these discussions to ensure the LRT supports the future area transportation network to best serve Calgarians who travel by foot, bike, bus or car
  • Travel times - The alignment to the north of the Victoria Park Transit Centre would result in slower travel times for Calgarians, and costly wear and tear on LRT vehicles due to very tight turns
  • Existing transit operations - Operations of the Victoria Park Transit Centre would be significantly impeded by a Green Line alignment around the north side of the facility, impacting transit service reliability throughout the city
  • Budget - The Green Line does not have the budget to re-locate the Victoria Park Transit Centre, so the team is exploring alignment options that do not require the relocation. The team has also explored a tunnel option through Beltline and under MacDonald Avenue SE. This option, while technically feasible, has been removed from consideration due to cost.

The City of Calgary’s Green Line team is now exploring the option of a street-level LRT on MacDonald Avenue SE to address the challenges created by the original 12 Avenue options. The MacDonald Avenue SE options are:


12 Avenue S Surface – MacDonald Ave
12 Avenue Tunnel + Surface – MacDonald Ave

The City will present these four alignment options to City Council’s Transportation and Transit Committee on March 15, 2017. After further evaluation, we intend to take a single recommended alignment to City Committee and Council later this spring.

We are committed to working with the communities to determine how the Green Line on MacDonald Avenue SE could best be integrated into the neighbourhood to create connections and build community spaces, if this option moves forward.

There are a number of opportunities to get involved:

  • The City will continue to meet with the Ramsay community association and homeowners whose properties could be impacted
  • Join us at a public meeting on March 2, 2017, at 6 p.m. at The Hemmingway Room of The Commons, 1206 20 Ave SE. This presentation will be a preview of the update the Green Line team will provide to City Committee on March 15, which will include:
    • An overview of our evaluation and how we arrived at the MacDonald Avenue SE option
    • An overview of the trade-offs of each option
    • An outline of the next steps in the evaluation and decision process 

We will provide more opportunities for public and community involvement this spring. Watch Calgary.ca/GreenLine for more information about other upcoming opportunities to get involved.

49 comments:

  1. We should not jump the gun till we have the financing, remember the line to 69 street, was not funded at the time and we went ahead and had huge charges which put the project over budget six times.

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  2. As an affected homeowner in Ramsay, I have some serious concerns about how this will affect my property and family. The information conveyed to us was lacking in sufficient detail to answer questions and only created more and more questions and concerns about how the North end of our community and street would and could be affected by this realignment of the greenline project. We need more answers and help in understanding the decision to realign a plan that has been worked on for so long. We need to understand if our home will be demolished to allow for this. The reasons listed above for this abrupt change of course seem rather flimsy, and most of the benefits could have been achieved with other alignments along 10 Ave or 11 Ave. Why were those options rejected? Why were the earlier info session/community planning events even held?

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  3. I live in the North, but see this betrayal of Ramsay as evidence that communities along the line must work together to ensure that the city is held accountable. I also wonder why the about face on 10 and 11 avenue alignments. My son's live in the Beltline and only use transit to leave the area, not to travel within or downtown. In my opinion the line needs to stick to 10, 11, or even 17 Ave allignments, if it's looking at ridership. I still remain a strong proponent of the line.

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  4. The 12th Ave surface proposal will hurt the community. The 8th Street and 9 Ave intersection is already under threat to be closed to vehicle traffic (CPR adding additional lines). If we added C-Train to MacDonald Ave, we'd lose that access to the north as well. Forcing all traffic in and out of the south and east access points.
    The MacDonald Ave is a path for many Ramsay and no Ramsay commuters through the community.

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    1. The East access will be a mess as they want to make 11 st into 2 lanes and the south access has railway tracks on the east and LRT at 25th and Macleod.

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  5. Hi everyone - thanks for all your comments. We understand that this is stressful, and we're listening to and recording of all of your questions and concerns.

    The update that the team will give to City Council's Committee on Transportation and Transit on March 15 is not an alignment recommendation for the Beltline segment. We will present the data and trade-offs of the options we're considering. These are big, complex decisions, and we want to build the best possible LRT for Calgary, so we need to look at all the factors that go into making the alignment recommendation and eventual Council decision.

    The team will be at The Commons - Hemmingway Room at 6:00 p.m. on Thursday, March 2. We don't have the answers to all of your questions yet, but we will be able to give a preview of the update that will be given at the T&T Committee meeting on March 15, including all the options we've been evaluating and why we are considering a MacDonald Avenue option.

    We will keep you informed as we continue to evaluate all alignment options. We appreciate your understanding as we move through this process.

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  6. Do you really think the Hemmingway Room is large enough for what you're going to be stirring up with this?

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  7. I appreciate that the Victoria park transfer station is a real cultural and architectural gem but I can't help but notice that someone drew a line right through my house. I may be biased but I feel that the City's planners' priorities aren't terribly well aligned with mine. But if it's a question of cost, I'm sure that Ramsay can have a few bake sales to help you with the rounding error that moving a bus depot represents in a multi billion dollar transit project.

    Looking forward to meeting you all on Thursday!

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  8. I find the belated realization by the city that the 12 Ave/surface route didn't meet LRT turning radius specifications incredible. Really? They didn't know this before they proposed the route? The waste of the community's time on last year's route planning is also mind-boggling.

    However my real concern is not with what was clearly a embarrassingly flawed process, it is with amputating the north end of Ramsay, bulldozing houses and compromising one of the few access points into the community. We have a community-approved route with a existing rail right of way that does not do all this damage to our historic area. Transit operations can adjust.

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  9. I live in Ramsay and I am one of the many residence who are alarmed at the most recent contemplation to run the greenline through ramsay via Macdonald bridge. This will tear the fabric of one of Calgary's oldest communities apart while saving the "bus barn". the destruction and isolation of a historic community and its residence should be paramount in this conversation. there is an existing railway right-of-way, lets use it!!

    see everyone March 2 at the open house. M Medwid

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  10. I live in Inglewood but have always felt that Ramsay and Inglewood are one community so I feel for my nieghbours. Many of us have been working with the city to come up with an alignment we can all live with. It's interesting to note that there has been very little resistance to idea of the Greenline coming through our community. We have welcomed it, but this alignment is pushing the boundary of what is acceptable too far. You are suggesting to dissect the community even further to save the bus barns that will be moved eventually. The land the bus barns sit on is very valuable. Why not look at the redevelopment of that land now. The value tied up in that land can help pay for the relocation. The city needs to find the money to move the bus barns and leave Ramsay intact.

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  11. We are 3 - 4 months away from completing our 2 year renovation of our dream home on 9th Street. We woke yesterday to an email from our neighbor advising us that the newly proposed road will run right through our home. Bad idea City of Calgary! You got away with destroying Victoria Park for bus barns and parking lots (which are used 10 days at Stampede and hockey games). If Victoria Park was still here today, I bet it would be one of the most desirable and funkiest communities in Calgary. Don't let them expropriate homes in historic Ramsay and ruin this neighbourhood as well! See you at the meetings.

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  12. There is obviously a hidden agenda here. why is the city being so sneaky with how they are going about this. Put the route back on 10th ave and the existing rail line. there are already to lines downtown (7th and cpr) that have killed the core. Why add another?

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  13. I attended the green line info session in the fall 2016 at the alexander center, at that time I viewed the maps and options for this exciting and long time coming greenline plan. Correct me if I am incorrect, I heard no mention of the Macdonald bridge option that slices our historic neighbourhood with lrt tracks. Please please do not do this. There are new beautiful homes and old as well that would be expropriated in this process. This unique small community should be kept intact. See you tonight, a large attendance I am sure. There is ample room for tracks elsewhere.

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  14. This has to go AROUND our neighbourhood (Ramsay). Full stop. There is lots of Victoria Park land available to make that happen and mixed-use development can happen around the line and might end up creating some great community spaces immediately to the west of the Elbow River.

    The bus barn can go somewhere else.

    Mr. Nenshi, you can't slice one of Calgary's oldest neighbourhoods to save the bus barn.

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  15. As resident of Keynote building, I have a huge concern regarding 12 ave surface option. It has been hard to get in and out of the building already especially when there are events at Stampede ground. This option will impact the traffic even more or will reguire revision of current traffic flow which will drive additional expenses. I just wonder if this was taking into consideration by design team. It seems that reuse of existing LRT or CPR makes the most sense

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  17. Wow ... I received the community newsletter today and to put it mildly was beyond alarmed and in fact shocked to discover this new proposal. Up to this point the various options appeared to have been communicated relatively well to the community, even to someone who is not overly involved or necessarily immediately or directly affected, or so I thought. The previous proposals also appeared to be a compromise between the needs of all, or at least a consideration of inputs from Ramsayites. This proposal is none of those things. Building this infrastructure through this area would destroy a vital and unique section of Ramsay in terms of both usage and access and transportation FOR RAMSAY RESIDENTS. While this route may possibly serve the needs of every other stakeholder, it serves no one in Ramsay. This is a very sudden and strange way to learn of this proposal. It is unlikely there is a way to design this kind of gross intrusion through the community in a way that would accommodate and maintain in any way the complex and well used spaces and access points in and out of Ramsay that currently exist in this area, and the effects would compound and radiate outwards throughout the community. Not to mention the currently thriving residential development in this exact area that clearly would need to be torn down. This route would sever the community from both within and from without. If you were looking to create an activist movement against this type of development, this is a good way to do it. I for one will fight tooth and nail against this. Either go around and build on the deserted and unused land as originally planned, or spend the money and tunnel underneath the whole route. On behalf of all Ramsay residents we sincerely apologize for the curve in your tracks, but somehow I just can't seem to stop noticing the 90 degree bend in the beltline? I also agree ... preferentially tear down and relocate (if it's going to happen anyway) the eyesore of a bus barn west of the bridge and maybe that land too can be better developed and integrated with the unique section of Ramsay that would be utterly destroyed if this infrastructure is built in this way.

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  18. Surely meeting the "significant technical and operational considerations for the alignment east of 4 St S.E" could be more easily completed within the Victoria Park Area, without resorting to a routing that would cut off Ramsay from one of its few train-unaffected entrances/exits on Macdonald Ave? Has the City completed a traffic count on this heavily used corridor to see how this alignment would choke off access in and out of Ramsay? It should be pretty obvious to anyone that using the area between 5th and 6th St SE would be considerably less disruptive than driving an LRT across a heavily used vehicle, bike and pedestrian bridge, and through a bunch of houses? If "The Green Line does not have the budget to re-locate the Victoria Park Transit Centre, so the team is exploring alignment options that do not require the relocation." does the Green Line have the budget to relocate the houses and businesses this will be directly affected by routing along McDonald Ave?

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  19. Invitation to the March 2nd meeting arrived in the mail today ... on March 6 ... how are residents supposed to attend a meeting and voice concerns if the meeting is held 4 days before the city lets the community know it is happening? Can we have another one where the invitation states directly what is being proposed (unlike this one that is all prettied up and wasn't even brave enough to state outright what is being proposed) so that residents know what to prepare for beforehand and have the actual opportunity to attend? Can all of us who were not informed in time of the March 2nd meeting attend the Green Line team update to the City Committee on March 15 so we can let the city committee know what the Green Line team missed, before they update and advise the city committee with information that is incomplete and skewed because the Green Line team avoided the community?

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  20. Ramsay will be boxed in on all sides with LRT and train tracks.

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  21. I've lived in Ramsay for 25 years. Just after moving in I attended the ARP meeting with the city, We were told the LRT and 9th Ave. would follow the railway east to meet Blackfoot then south. The right-of-way was there and the city owned the land. What happen to this plan?

    We put up with traffic from Flame, Hitman, Roughnecks and every other event at the Stampede grounds weekly. This plan will make getting in and out of Ramsay a nightmare!

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  22. The city has suggested that this proposed corridor along MacDonald Avenue will be an additional opportunity for development in Ramsay, however, it is essential to note that having a ground level train is of no advantage if that train doesn’t actually stop along the streets in Ramsay. No matter what alignment is chosen, any opportunity for development will remain the same as it is solely due to the already confirmed/pre-determined presence/location of the Inglewood/Ramsay station. A MacDonald Avenue alignment of a train that DOES NOT STOP IN RAMSAY will not create any such integration or opportunity. The city wants to market the new low floor model train as more accessible and incorporated into communities …. this would only be true if it stopped at every block like a streetcar (which Ramsay used to have apparently) but this will not be the case here. Instead it is all of the community’s activities that will have to come to a complete stop every 5 minutes in order to accommodate each train as it moves through, with spectators on the train from other communities taking in the view as they roll through on their way to their alternate destinations.

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  23. A comparison was made to the liveable walkable cities in Europe where these types of trains are also used … the key difference in those cities is that those trains stop at regular intervals along those streets. The only difference between the existing “disaster of a C-Train line like that along 36 Street NE that needs to be avoided at all costs” is that this proposed one along MacDonald Avenue will have less separation and be immediately adjacent to the “walkable” sidewalks as the train blows through the community.

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  24. The cities issue is not that the trains will need more maintenance or that the bends in the track cannot be built to adhere with the initially proposed alignment, but that it will take an extra minute or two to commute through the area. It is clear from this statement that the city intends to BLOW these trains through the community and not have them quietly integrated into and used by the community … they will after all need to save that minute to realize their return on the cost of destroying all those houses.

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  25. The alignment through MacDoanld Avenue cannot be “at grade” as the slopes through the area are too steep to move the train up and then down again to align with the new Inglewood/Ramsay station. This means that the existing street levels can’t even be maintained … this will look like a scar cut through the community. How is the character to be improved or even maintained if the streets can’t even line up anymore? This also would undoubtedly result in “more affected land area”.

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  26. The city has suggested that there will be more opportunities for development along the route in Ramsay if the train runs along MacDonald Avenue … so by this theory, in addition to tearing down peoples homes and cutting apart and isolating various parts of the community, “more development opportunities” can only mean tearing down more homes and replacing them with something else. And this would only be true if in fact the train would be stopping at any point along the route it is proposed to dissect Ramsay. But it will not stop and therefore it will not attract anything. It is a transportation corridor and that’s all it will ever be through Ramsay. A concrete and steel corridor.

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  27. For those homes that are not directly destroyed, those that remain will be staring at and hearing these trains every 5 minutes in each direction, all day every day, in addition to having the spectators on the trains staring back at them into their yards and homes. This will change the fundamental character of the neighbourhood. The demand for and value of homes anywhere near this type of transportation corridor will drop, just as they do in every other similar situation world-wide. The city has asked for Ramsayites to identify what it is that we will be losing and what it is that we wish to preserve. What we are preserving is the quiet cohesive unique eclectic (if small) community that has been developed over a hundred years. As others have stated, Ramsay is one of the very few communities in Calgary that does not feel like a cookie-cutter planned sterile suburb. It is a place that actually feels like an organic home that has developed naturally over time and displays all the corners and marks and the good and the bad of it’s natural development over time …. it retains the indelible stains of it’s human history. That is what makes it so appealing. That is what makes it worth preserving. A concrete and steal transportation corridor cut through the community will do nothing but erase that history, that sense of community and home, no matter how pretty the train is that parades through on that corridor. Furthermore it will kill the desire of those who remain to take the pride in ownership to preserve and improve upon that character.

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  28. The city goes on and on about how they are planning for the long distant future of the green line and what the city will be for the children and grandchildren, and that is why they want to make sure that they get this right. Yet somehow in the same mouthful the city acknowledges that the bus barns are in the short term necessary while acknowledging that they are planned to be eliminated sooner rather than later. So where is the long term planning? And the city is willing to sacrifice the very essence of what Ramsay is and peoples homes, and a hundred years of history, only to save a bus barn for a few years? It is also interesting how the city tries to add the cost of the bus barn closure/move to the Greenline budget, when this an activity that was and is planned separately and will happen with or without the Greenline … therefore blaming this cost as a prohibitive expense to the construction of the Greenline is a red herring. In fact, the entire bus barn closure move will be paid for by the city at some point anyhow, and a line going through MacDonald Avenue will be even more expensive than routing the line around the bus barn. This means that instead of just paying for the bus barn removal and putting the line through there, the city will end up paying for the bus ban removal AND paying the extra cost of shoving the line through MacDonald Avenue through Ramsay. Short-term, small-minded thinking AND MORE EXPENSIVE.

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    1. If they are planning for the future, why does the line ever touch the ground? The only way to put a line like this in so that traffic is not destroyed in the way it is on both the East and West sides of downtown is to elevate the entire line. Putting anything at grade is willfully ignorant, sentencing the city to more time of unnecessarily destroyed access, frustration, unnecessary energy and transportation costs. Tunneling will also not work due to the geography in Calgary, so it will be very funny when the massive cost overruns and delays lead to the old feasibility study being unearthed showing that tunnels should have never been proposed in the first place for the green line. It would be funny if my money wasn't being wasted.

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  29. It does appear that this realignment is more about the cities currently “unknown” new setbacks from the major CP transportation route. This appears to be a sales job to sell something that will be pushed through anyway because the city clearly already knows that the setback from the CP rail line will not allow them to place the Greenline on the abandoned lands next to the CP tracks as originally proposed. It is therefore clear that the line will be placed down MacDonald Avenue no matter what the community wants or doesn’t want, or says or doesn’t say. So might as well make it as difficult for them as possible and get something huge in return if they want to sell us on this. The sooner we get them to admit to that, the sooner the bargaining can begin and it will lay all their cards on the table and they will not be able to hide behind statements that the “new” setbacks were a “surprise” that now leaves them no other option, or that it is “unrelated” and that they “didn’t know”, and that it would then be too late to offer much or anything in return.

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  30. It is also clear that the alignment along 12 Avenue is and was solely the decision of the city. It was not chosen or preferred by those stakeholders who might be affected in those areas. If it is listened carefully to everything the city said about the 12 Avenue alignment, every statement used only the word “we” (meaning them, the city) evaluated this, and “we” looked at that, and “we” determined this … and this was borne out by the comments of the 12th Avenue business member at the meeting who stated they knew nothing about the project until they found city workers doing assessment work on the 12th Avenue alignment blocking access to the front of their business. It is also noted that the city stated clearly several times that although a 10th Avenue alignment might be less beneficial as they would then only have a “semi-circle” of additional C-Train spin-off development around each station due to the presence of the CP tracks, that it was not stated that 10th Avenue was an actual problem or not possible to build. In regards to an 11th Avenue alignment, the city had even less reason to dismiss this option other than to state that a 12th Avenue alignment had slightly more merit in the cities assessments. WHAT THIS MEANS IS … that the city appears to have solely selected the 12th Avenue alignment all on their own without input from any other party …. the affected members along 10th, 11th, or 12th Avenues either don’t really care which Avenue is used or weren’t even asked, and the decision is based on the cities own projected potential slight advantage of one avenue over the other in the distant future. In that case, based on the extensive suggested development of the Stampede grounds, it would be best to keep the alignment as close as possible to the existing CP rail corridor such that the Stampede grounds will have as much open unbroken tracks of land available as possible to build whatever massive structures need to be built without a train cutting through them.

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  31. The city is marketing this train as an opportunity for Ramsayites to access other communities in SE Calgary. I doubt very much that there is much if any demand for this. Ramsayites prefer to access the downtown core and it is access in this direction that is being cut off by this transportation corridor. In any case, this argument is of no relevance to the MacDonald Avenue alignment because Ramsayites will have the exact same access to the train no matter what the alignment is. As the train will not stop anywhere in Ramsay even if it runs at ground level down the center of our existing streets … IT WILL NOT STOP IN RAMSAY … if a Ramsayite living on MacDonald Avenue wants to go to SE Calgary, they will have no choice but to still go to the INGLEWOOD/RAMSAY station to catch the train … maybe the breeze at their back of the train blowing by them down MacDonald Avenue will speed them on their walk to the station!!

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  32. Not living in Calgary at the moment, but following this closely. Don't let them off the hook Ramsay! The whole thing reminds me of the weird ad-hoc way they deiced on running the West LRT through Sunalta and across Crowchild Tr; Still not sure why that huge, imposing, expensive viaduct was needed when there is so much bare land all around.

    Same thing seems to be happening here, maybe it is the CPR reneging on their agreement to sell the city land in the 'narrows' at the north end of Ramsay? If so, the city ought to speak up, so Ramsay and everyone else can direct their anger at CPR! And if the 'narrows' isn't the issue, then I suggest everyone in Ramsay hammer away at council with all the other reasons why the 10th Ave alignment would be better ON TOP of the obvious positive of NOT slicing up your neighbourhood, namely:
    1) Less traffic impact in the Beltline at cross-streets
    2) Turning radius at 10th and 2nd better than 12th & 2nd
    3) Station at 10th & 4th serves East Village better!
    4) What do people & biz in Victoria Park actually prefer??

    They're probably going to use traffic impacts of 12th option to justify going underground all along 12th - this leads to the 5th and most compelling argument of all:

    5) That's a HUGE additional cost for the whole city to bear!!

    Man, I hate this dodgy, contradictory, ad-hoc approach to planning. I took urban studies course at U of C, taught by good sessional instructors who were City of Calgary employees... What you've been getting is NOT what they taught us!

    Best of luck to all of you!




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  33. Also worth demanding an answer as to why, if they're adamant about 12th ave, can't run a nice gradual curve through the block bounded by 11th & 12th Aves, and 5th $6th Street, surfacing north of 11th? No tight curves, no interference with the bus barns, they get their Victoria Park alignment, you get the sensible Ramsay alignment

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  34. A MacDonald Ave surface train would seriously impede access to Ramsay. 25th Ave is a painful intersection due to the LRT and traffic light interference, and 8th Street already has a train crossing. Going underground next to McDonald (existing grade would half force that anyway) or sticking to the 10th Ave alignment makes much more sense.

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  35. From the comments, it would be helpful to understand with detail and transparency how the 10th avenue alignment doesn't work, and why. The 12th Avenue alignment looks awkward and the "tight turn" seems odd given the turn onto 12th, which probably isn't actually designed yet, but will be a tight radius.

    There simple isn't enough detail around the most contentious points being provided by city and transit planning at this point.

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  36. It is important to note that at the March 15th update to council, many stakeholders spoke directly to council. These stakeholders appeared to represent many (all?) of the major stakeholders who will be serviced/affected by the Greenline alignment in the area extending from East of MacLeod Trail through Ramsay to the future Inglewood/Ramsay station.These representatives included all of the major developers and the Stampede in the area along 12th Avenue, and the key stakeholders in Ramsay (i.e. the affected homeowners). What is important to note is that NOT A SINGLE ONE of these stakeholders supported any of the Greenline teams proposals for the route along 12th Avenue (surfacing portal/surface station) or the proposed MacDonald Avenue alignment.

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  37. Despite the unanimous stakeholder rejection of the proposals, the city continues to propound the concept that none of the stakeholders seem to understand what the city is proposing and continues to indicate that essentially the line is of such low profile that essentially it will have little or no impact on pedestrian or traffic flow, or on sight lines, or on neighborhood atmosphere. Apparently it is almost invisible? I find it unlikely that none of the stakeholders understands what is being proposed, or that the city is the exclusive visionary of what the ultimate experience and impact will be. It is particularly concerning when very experienced stakeholders and developers unanimously state that the surface impacts will be primarily negative.

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  38. The community expert and affected stakeholder input recommendations that the 12th Avenue alignment be constructed underground is the long term ideal solution. The sole reason that it is not on the table is due to a funding limitation. I would suggest that even the city would agree that the ideal placement is underground and the singular reason it is not being currently proposed is the cost. It is clear then that the alignment right now is acceptable to no stakeholder or decision maker and is then solely based on cost. As a result consideration of stakeholder input or long term vision becomes a moot point unless the necessary investment to realize the most appropriate and effective solution is identified.

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  39. It appears then that it may be possible that the responsible city representatives are required by the funding limitations to create and sell themselves on the "benefits" of the only available solution. They must then attempt to sell this "manufactured" vision to the stakeholders. Who does this service? I am not convinced that any of the decision makers are actually visualizing what this solution will look like. The vision that is being advocated is one of pedestrians and animals and children and cars all frolicking together with a quaint little train. This is not a realizable reality. Roads will be closed and blocked. Barriers will be required to prevent "wandering" onto the tracks. There will be crossing points at remaining intersections, but those crossings will be frequently blocked by regular train crossings. Anyone who has tried to navigate through the area between the drop-in center to the new music center (pedestrian or vehicle) will attest to the major interruptions to flows through that area. This area is comparable to what the city is proposing along 12th Avenue and along MacDonald Avenue, the only difference being a different shape of train, otherwise all track is right at surface and navigates a web of intersections. The result? - this area is avoided as opposed to being an attraction.

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  40. Every single piece of expert and stakeholder input along 12th Avenue is advising the city that an underground alignment along this stretch is the recommended solution ... not just because it is nicer or preferred ... but because it will forever impact the workability, attractiveness, appeal, atmosphere, develop-ability, and functionality of the area. Not that it wouldn't also be nicer and preferred .. and that is also the point ... it is supposed to be the city "we want", not just "what we're stuck with".

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  41. It is clear that as the funding limitations are the sole drivers of the Greenline proposals along 12th Avenue, then it is also clear that the funding "cap" on this stretch needs to be re-evaluated. It is clear that the vision and goals for this portion of the Greenline cannot be realized at the current investment level. If an affordable but workable and acceptable solution to realize the goals of the project cannot be sourced, then why undertake the project at all? Particularly in an area that will essentially be the "heart" of the entire Greenline?

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  42. One of the most interesting things about all of the major expert and developer input along the 12 Avenue alignment (i.e. recommendation for that entire portion of the line to be underground) is that it opens additional opportunities to achieve the original alignment through Ramsay adjacent to the CPR tracks, thereby avoiding the significant disruption to the community of Ramsay that would result from a MacDonald Avenue surface alignment .... the affected families and homeowners, the city's historical legacies that will be compromised or eliminated in the area, as well as the "forever" disruption to movement through (and usage of) the community of Ramsay.

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  43. If the input of all of the major developers and stakeholders along the 12 Avenue section east of MacLeod trail is accepted, and the alignment is placed underground along this stretch, then the additional cost of extending a tunnel option under Ramsay to the Ramsay/Inglewood station becomes less of an additional cost. That may be wishful thinking, but it must be said again that Ramsay does not oppose the Greenline or the surface line option adjacent to the community, and we have and are willing to continue to work with the city on any proposal/alignment that does not sever the community or destroy homes, heritage, and functionality.

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  44. The old bus barn closure/relocation continues to appear to be an essential consideration and possibility. However, it does not actually appear to be essential or vital or even key to identifying a functional alignment through Ramsay along the original proposed CPR tracks alignment.

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  45. The contradiction between the cities insistence that this surface line (12th Avenue/Victoria Park and MacDonald Avenue/Ramsay) will have little impact on traffic flow when contrasted with the cities own conclusion that a track orientation running across the bus barn entrance will significantly hinder the flow of that bus barn traffic, illustrates the contradictions in the cities own evaluations. Somehow the line will have no impact on the much greater regular traffic flows, yet it will significantly impact buses entering/exiting the bus barns such that it is justification not to run the track across the bus barn entrance? So clearly what is not acceptable for the city services is perfectly acceptable for the city residents?

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  46. The closing comment of the city manager was concerning. The statement was essentially "thank you but difficult decision have to be made". This did not sound like any change in direction was hopeful, but sounded more like a recognition that people should prepare to be disappointed. If that's the position of the city then I suppose that's what the area will be ...one big disappointment .... a vacant two block radius to either side that is only full when there's a game or it's the two weeks of Stampede. Nice.

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  47. The one advantage of a surface 12th Avenue and/or MacDonald Avenue alignment through Ramsay? - there will be no more short-cutting suburb-downtown commuters down 8th Street as there will no longer be any functional/efficient/quick route from 8th Street in Ramsay through to any route west of the Elbow river that continues on into downtown. Silver linings.

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